tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7583674511519808833.post1629775591489981341..comments2024-03-29T11:20:48.180+00:00Comments on Rosa Rubicondior: So You Want To Be An Apologist For ChristianityRosa Rubicondiorhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06063268216781988588noreply@blogger.comBlogger33125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7583674511519808833.post-26722817963764685562015-06-21T18:14:12.076+01:002015-06-21T18:14:12.076+01:00You'd like there to be an onus, but the truth ...You'd like there to be an onus, but the truth is that you can't have it both ways. You can't have God show up on every doorstep AND maintain our freedom of choice. Once god's existence is 'proven beyond all shadow of doubt" - everyone is forced to make a decision.<br /><br />Here's an example of what I mean:<br /><br />Lets for a moment say that God came and revealed himself to every individual on the face of the earth (no faith required) and produced a complimentary miracle to prove he is who he claims to be, and then said "you are now free to choose: Follow me, or don't follow me. BUT, if you decide to turn away from me, you will burn in the fiery pit of hell for all eternity after you die."<br /><br />This is essentially a threat, forcing people to choose, or live on without God and eventually die and suffer damnation. This technique btw is known as coercion. And going by our humble courts of law,any testimony taken under duress, is inadmissible/invalid.<br /><br /><br />The Bible does not force anyone to believe in it. Hence we have a choice. Atheists have made their choice.<br /><br />But, since you asked, an example of a prophecy fulfilled was in the book of Daniel (written between 540-530 BC, toward the end of the Babylonian empire - the earliest copy of the text, from the Dead Sea Scrolls, was dated to around 200 BC) regarding the prediction of the order of the world's empires, from Babylon to Persia, to Greece and then Rome from 63BC...<br /><br />Of course you could just Google 'Bible prophecies' to decide for yourself - if you were really interested.<br /><br />I find it oddly amusing that you refer to the flying spaghetti monster, or "pastafarianism" - a parody religion that "opposes the teaching of intelligent design and creationism" - aligning it greatly and putting it squarely in the pocket of Atheism.<br />Mind you, by mocking them you're only mocking yourself <br /><br />Atheists Austin Dacey and Lewis Vaughn write:<br />"What if these arguments purporting to establish that God exists are failures? That is, what if they offer no justification for theistic belief? Must we then conclude that God does not exist? No. Lack of supporting reasons or evidence for a proposition does not show that the proposition is false"<br /><br />I'll close this post on a classic apologetic trope you mentioned above... The Bible is the most controversial and attacked book ever written, surviving every acid test known to man who has (rightfully) tried to to dissect/scrutinize/disprove it for centuries. And still it remains... because the fact is mere men could could not have written such a book based on their own wits alone.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04213855689751889603noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7583674511519808833.post-64486788778822188242015-06-21T13:41:22.153+01:002015-06-21T13:41:22.153+01:00Congratulations. You've just shown there is no...Congratulations. You've just shown there is no more reason to believe in your imaginary magic friend than any other. You've also shown an inability to cope with joined-up logic or to recognise irony. I was going to add that I wished all fundamentalist Christians were that easy to expose as gullible simpletons but the fact is, most of them are. <br /><br />Thank you for supporting atheism.Rosa Rubicondiorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06063268216781988588noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7583674511519808833.post-74727441916373226952015-06-21T12:52:32.534+01:002015-06-21T12:52:32.534+01:00Congratulations, you've just given up your ath...Congratulations, you've just given up your atheism to defend your atheism, and (2) you've provided us no predictive prophecy grounded in historical events, etc., (3) and thus given us no good reason to believe in your god over a uniplural Flying Spaghetti monster.Debunking Atheists https://www.blogger.com/profile/09738373112032154790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7583674511519808833.post-59705919632166894692015-06-21T00:23:51.021+01:002015-06-21T00:23:51.021+01:00Of course, exactly the same argument can be advanc...Of course, exactly the same argument can be advanced for the Flying Spaghetti Monster or Magic Moon Men.<br /><br />The onus is still on you to prove your magic friend exists.<br /><br />Nice heap of verbiage to hide the non-answer under though.Rosa Rubicondiorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06063268216781988588noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7583674511519808833.post-57413518145685544612015-06-21T00:00:34.212+01:002015-06-21T00:00:34.212+01:00I know this is an old-ish post but I thought I’d w...I know this is an old-ish post but I thought I’d weigh in.<br />Firstly, magsmagenta; the statement “God said that without faith he is nothing” is false regarding the Bible since you referred to it earlier. The Bible neither states this, nor infers it.<br />Heb 11:6 states that its impossible to please God without faith… your quote though, is from The Hitchhikers guide to the galaxy.<br /><br />Further comments:<br />Its always interesting to see how atheists always claim that they’ve proven God doesn’t exist, or that the onus is on the Christian to prove he does exist. Firstly, nothing of the sort has been proven or disproven. You cannot use science to explain the origins of the universe. Science – as in the Scientific method, applies to everything observable in the known universe. Creationism or the presiding model of Cosmology – the Big Bang Theory – is within the realm of historical science (something akin to forensic science; studying a scene after events to detect indications of what may have happened). No one was around to witness the beginning of the universe, all we can do is speculate, make assumptions and calculations… Or we can test the scriptures (texts that claim to hold the answers to the questions we have) to see if nature is consistent with what was written. Thus none if it can be empirically proven beyond all doubt, and this is why they are still called theories.<br />You can use science to help you understand the universe and the mechanics thereof, but it is a tool that ‘operates’ within the confines of the known universe. The question of how the universe came into being --- that is not a scientific question, but a philosophical one. <br />One of the reasons people are drawn toward atheism is because its such a simple idea, its so neat, even if there are holes and that it lacks a discernible “in the beginning moment” – as one scientist put it, “it’s a beautiful idea”. It’s interesting that Rosa mentions a ‘magical god’, but when atheist Bill Nye was questioned about what happened in the beginning, he said “something magical happened”.<br />The Creation/Evolution debate often (as Rosa laments) turns toward morality, but for good reason. Intellectually this debate ends up like a veritable tit-for-tat squabble with scientists tossing questions, explanations, claims and rebuttals at one another (and many of the ‘apologist’ tropes and tactics you mention Rosa, can be attributed to atheists as well, like circular reasoning and ad hominem – I’ve been on the receiving end,even before the debate began… then again I’ve also read many Christian responses and rolled my eyes as they've often done more harm than good). <br />And even outside this debate, ‘the experts’ often disagree. Why it comes back to morality is because Man doesn’t want there to be a god, because that means he is accountable as he wants to be master of his own soul. So he turns to his own intelligence to devise something that works in his favour, to suit himself. <br />Hypothetically though, if God does exist, and he somehow made contact with his creation (whilst still keeping intact their gift of freedom of choice), the scenario of how all this would play out, would not be simple, neat or comfortable.<br />Many people resort to playing with religion because they unwilling to face the (sometimes terrifying) facts about Christianity and the questions it claims to answer. <br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04213855689751889603noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7583674511519808833.post-87558873145453478562014-08-13T22:16:51.435+01:002014-08-13T22:16:51.435+01:00As you might have guessed, I have a blog about the...As you might have guessed, I have a blog about the numbers fallacy - <a href="http://rosarubicondior.blogspot.com/2011/06/fundamentalists-have-problem-with.html" rel="nofollow">Fundamentalists Have a Problem With Numbers</a> :-)Rosa Rubicondiorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06063268216781988588noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7583674511519808833.post-68587670427875237332014-08-13T21:57:49.977+01:002014-08-13T21:57:49.977+01:00Actually I've heard all of these arguments fro...Actually I've heard all of these arguments from god believers. Maybe especially this one: The Numbers Fallacy. This is where you argue that God must exist because x billion people can’t be wrong. And this one: The Shifted Burden. Insisting your opponent proves God doesn’t exist or else he does exist.<br /><br />I see among the comments that there are more people than I who rejoice in reading your blog articles. Maybe I should start The Rosa Rubicondior Fan Club? (BTW, did you know that "fan" is a swear-word in Swedish, meaning Satan, The Devil? Talking about swear-words, my surname Helvete is the Swedish word for Hell, the probable end destination for people like me. Who knows (except for God, of course) if you and me will meet each other there some time in the future? I'm alreasdy looking forward to that and therefore do my utterly best to avoid being sent to Heaven in my afterlife. Helmer von Helvetehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02136543309048013677noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7583674511519808833.post-76736970273556173912013-11-01T05:42:06.401+00:002013-11-01T05:42:06.401+00:00Yes, I hadn't noticed how long ago this was po...Yes, I hadn't noticed how long ago this was posted :)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7583674511519808833.post-8059789930007068212013-10-29T01:50:06.488+00:002013-10-29T01:50:06.488+00:00I think D.A.N has long since flounced off in a huf...I think D.A.N has long since flounced off in a huff because his tactics in lieu of arguments didn't work here.Rosa Rubicondiorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06063268216781988588noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7583674511519808833.post-14943803853403871112013-10-28T12:44:55.891+00:002013-10-28T12:44:55.891+00:00'Science' is a very broad term, I suggest ...'Science' is a very broad term, I suggest that you familiarise yourself with what science actually is before you begin demanding to know if it is 'right' or not. This is what Wikipedia has to say: <br />"In modern usage, "science" most often refers to a way of pursuing knowledge, not only the knowledge itself. It is also often restricted to those branches of study that seek to explain the phenomena of the material universe.[6] In the 17th and 18th centuries scientists increasingly sought to formulate knowledge in terms of laws of nature such as Newton's laws of motion. And over the course of the 19th century, the word "science" became increasingly associated with the scientific method itself, as a disciplined way to study the natural world, including physics, chemistry, geology and biology." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science <br />So when you are asking how we know 'Science' is right, it's because we applied the Scientific Method' <br /><br />("The scientific method is a body of techniques for investigating phenomena, acquiring new knowledge, or correcting and integrating previous knowledge.[1] To be termed scientific, a method of inquiry must be based on empirical and measurable evidence subject to specific principles of reasoning.[2] The Oxford English Dictionary defines the scientific method as: "a method or procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method )<br /><br />We apply the scientific method to various ideas which we want to test out to find out how true or untrue they are, we gather evidence to support that truth and change our ideas if the evidence doesn't fit in with the idea.<br /><br />If by 'Science' you mean the ideas themselves, eg. the Big Bang or Evolution, we Know science is correct because we have applied the Scientific method to them and have found them to be the best way of explaining the world that we have at present. Whether that fits in with your 'Faith' or not is irrelevent if your 'Faith' doesn't stand up to the Scientific Method, which unfortunately for you it doesn't.<br /><br />Further more, as the party proposing the theory that 'God' exists in the way you say he does, and that the Bible is his word, the burden of proof is on you to prove that according to Scientific Method, not on us to prove that it is not so. That is how the Scientific Method works.<br /><br />Good luck proving that, and not making God vanish in the process, because as we all know, God said that without Faith he is nothing.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7583674511519808833.post-30070500443069439552012-05-25T06:30:11.020+01:002012-05-25T06:30:11.020+01:00So, in your fantasy, I'm projecting your proud...So, in your fantasy, I'm projecting your proud inability to tell reality from your fantasy, eh?<br /><br />There probably isn't much I can do to help you if you've managed to disclaim any responsibility for your problem and to blame it all on everyone else, is there.<br /><br />All that remains now for you to try is blaming me for your messages too.<br /><br />Don't you ever get embarrassed needing to be so inventive in your avoidance of the real world in order to make your delusion seem to work for you?Rosa Rubicondiorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06063268216781988588noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7583674511519808833.post-37277979801811725492012-05-24T22:30:54.858+01:002012-05-24T22:30:54.858+01:00>>I'm sorry you're still having diff...>>I'm sorry you're still having difficulty telling reality from fantasy.<br /><br />Your avoidance of the questions speaks volumes here. Keep up that great work for the glory of God.<br /><br />>>I think it's about time you sought professional help with your problem.<br /><br />In the field we call that <a href="https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Psychological_projection" rel="nofollow">PROJECTING</a>. <br /><br />>>I really don't see why you expect to get it from here.<br /><br />I hope you're referring to answers to my questions, so that you would be spot on for once. :7)D. A. N. https://www.blogger.com/profile/11745259115723860852noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7583674511519808833.post-56795638288989081162012-05-24T17:50:02.117+01:002012-05-24T17:50:02.117+01:00D.A.N.
I'm sorry you're still having diff...D.A.N.<br /><br />I'm sorry you're still having difficulty telling reality from fantasy. I think it's about time you sought professional help with your problem. I really don't see why you expect to get it from here.Rosa Rubicondiorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06063268216781988588noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7583674511519808833.post-72828926848261389372012-05-18T03:59:02.344+01:002012-05-18T03:59:02.344+01:00>>If there is an objective reality about whi...>>If there is an objective reality about which we can have knowledge, then no god is sending communication into that reality.<br /><br /><br />IF? So you don't KNOW? How do you KNOW your reasoning about this, or anything, is even valid?D. A. N. https://www.blogger.com/profile/11745259115723860852noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7583674511519808833.post-83848220307365463102012-05-17T23:35:22.905+01:002012-05-17T23:35:22.905+01:00D.A.N.
If there is an objective reality about whi...D.A.N.<br /><br />If there is an objective reality about which we can have knowledge, then no god is sending communication into that reality. In this case, we are able to trust our measurements of the reality, and make predictions based on those measurements (a procedure which, by my personal measurement, serves me well).<br /><br />On the other hand, if any god is sending communication into reality, then we would not be able to know what is and is not real.<br /><br />If you choose to believe that there is no reality, then every belief you add to that first belief, is a contradictory belief.<br /><br />Similarly, if you choose to believe that there is a reality, but some god sends messages into it, then every belief you add to those two beliefs, is contradicted by those two beliefs. You cannot know a third thing, because your observations leading you to the third belief may have been corrupted by a message from a god.<br /><br />So, ultimately, I choose to ignore the words of people who are capable of only knowing one or two things.Therm0manhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13004314383499555498noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7583674511519808833.post-907670482648240582012-02-23T14:17:52.854+00:002012-02-23T14:17:52.854+00:00D.A.N
Yep. Just as I expected, you're going t...D.A.N<br /><br />Yep. Just as I expected, you're going to try to convince me there is no such thing as reality in order to justify your infantile belief in a magic creator of it.<br /><br />I doubt we can make any progress beyond that if we want to debate like adults can we?<br /><br />Are you ever going to make any worthwhile contributions to this blog?Rosa Rubicondiorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06063268216781988588noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7583674511519808833.post-88529211255605388692012-02-23T01:26:55.593+00:002012-02-23T01:26:55.593+00:00Rosa,
Hi again.
>>To check that reasoning ...Rosa,<br /><br />Hi again.<br /><br />>>To check that reasoning is valid you compare your conclusions with reality. This is called 'science'. <br /><br />Science is reality? Can science be wrong? Thus what follows, can "reality" be wrong? <br /><br />>>I can see why you have a problem with it.<br /><br />I certainly do.<br /><br />Now define "reality" without begging the very question.<br /><br />>>No doubt you'll now try to convince me there is no such thing as reality in order to try to justify your superstitious belief in a magic creator of it... <br /><br />Well doubt then, because I do KNOW there is a reality. <br /><br />How are you certain that your senses/faculties/perception of reality are correct???<br /><br />How do you KNOW science is correct?D. A. N. https://www.blogger.com/profile/11745259115723860852noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7583674511519808833.post-91049693960545465892012-02-22T20:29:56.042+00:002012-02-22T20:29:56.042+00:00Hi D.A.N.
Have you come back to continue showing ...Hi D.A.N.<br /><br />Have you come back to continue showing people your proud disconnect from reality?<br /><br />To check that reasoning is valid you compare your conclusions with reality. This is called 'science'. I can see why you have a problem with it.<br /><br />No doubt you'll now try to convince me there is no such thing as reality in order to try to justify your superstitious belief in a magic creator of it...Rosa Rubicondiorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06063268216781988588noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7583674511519808833.post-52740322288174961682012-02-22T17:09:00.905+00:002012-02-22T17:09:00.905+00:00Rosa,
How do you know your reasoning about this, ...Rosa,<br /><br />How do you know your reasoning about this, or anything, is valid?D. A. N. https://www.blogger.com/profile/11745259115723860852noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7583674511519808833.post-51119506771529783732012-02-22T16:57:38.958+00:002012-02-22T16:57:38.958+00:00Obviously touched a raw nerve there. LOL!
Ever th...Obviously touched a raw nerve there. LOL!<br /><br />Ever the sore loser, eh?Rosa Rubicondiorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06063268216781988588noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7583674511519808833.post-4479952414505452962012-02-22T13:12:40.135+00:002012-02-22T13:12:40.135+00:00I came across this by someone blasting it for it i...I came across this by someone blasting it for it is closed minded, illogical rhetoric. If you find it similar, do not repost or link to it, the author will use the funding your visit creates through page ads to spread more of this tripe.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7583674511519808833.post-27456129159927145482012-01-09T22:23:49.658+00:002012-01-09T22:23:49.658+00:00Anonymous.
Sorry you felt unable to reveal your i...Anonymous.<br /><br />Sorry you felt unable to reveal your identity. The problem is now that anyone can contribute to this thread and pretend to be you, just as you could be pretending to be the anonymous person currently making an ass of him/herself in the comment sections of other blogs here.<br /><br />Having said, that, may I compliment you in keeping up the fine Christian tradition of abusing those whom you disagree with whilst not dealing with the subject.<br /><br />You forgot to threaten me with your god, however. You really should have read the blog so you could improve on your technique.Rosa Rubicondiorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06063268216781988588noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7583674511519808833.post-24002409040520563532012-01-09T21:32:57.044+00:002012-01-09T21:32:57.044+00:00The classic atheist blog...full of lies, ad homine...The classic atheist blog...full of lies, ad hominem, and name-calling...along with no evidence for or against their belief system or the belief system of others. Oh yeah, and the capper...delete this comment so that none of the elite intellectuals can ever see this. Good ol' atheism. What intellectualism has come to be. {laughing} What a joke.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7583674511519808833.post-82539656733963777322011-09-08T22:59:52.297+01:002011-09-08T22:59:52.297+01:00I note you dismiss Ehrlman's arguments out of ...I note you dismiss Ehrlman's arguments out of hand without bothering to read them. As I expected, you have carefully avoided the discomfort of cognitive dissonance by scrupulously avoiding reading anything which disagrees with your superstition. This is, of course a predictable response in a theophobe which is why I provoked it. Thank your for cooperating with me<br /><br />It amazes me that a grown adult can apparently persuade himself that nasty facts go away if ignored or that somehow reality is conditional on his acceptance of it, but this seems to be your modus operandum and neatly illustrates the emotional immaturity required to be a fundamentalist Creationist. Thank you for cooperating in a demonstration of that unfortunate condition.<br /><br />Tell me something: has this tactic ever fooled anyone other than you?Rosa Rubicondiorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06063268216781988588noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7583674511519808833.post-58518795549603500972011-09-08T22:16:37.516+01:002011-09-08T22:16:37.516+01:00OH and ONE glaring hypocrisy, on your part, is tha...OH and ONE glaring hypocrisy, on your part, is that you NEVER EVER answered my question. You know the very thing you are complaining about! Bwahahahahahahah...silly Atheist.D. A. N. https://www.blogger.com/profile/11745259115723860852noreply@blogger.com