Wednesday, 3 October 2012

An Easy One For Christians & Muslims

This should be an easy one for Christians and Muslims who both believe in a Hell where Satan lives and gets our souls to torture for eternity in unimaginably horribly ways.

The story goes that God, ever the narcissist, created angels so they could worship and adore him, but, so that they could do so in all sincerity and not just as pre-programmed automatons, he gave them free will too. For some reason, Satan wasn't convinced by his creator's majesty and perfection and, like an up and coming young ape, or a young would-be tribal leader of Bronze Age hunter-gathers, he challenged the old silver-backed alpha male, lost, and so was chucked out of Heaven for eternity. It's not clear why he wasn't convinced by a perfect god or why this god created him in the first place when, being omniscient, he knew all along what was going to happen. Nor is it at all clear why this god can't forgive Satan and so end evil, but let's run with the story and not get bogged down too much by its absurdities.

Now, we're not really told why, but Satan then decided to create Hell so he could punish other people who did what he had done and rejected God. I know! I know! It doesn't make any sense that he would punish people for agreeing with him and not worshipping his enemy, but I didn't make this stuff up and we're just playing along, remember!

Now, let's suppose this idea is real and not just the projection of a sick and angry little mind who would just love to be doing that to people who disagree with him or don't obey his commands.

If Satan wants to get our souls to stop his enemy God getting them,this should have created competition for the benefit of the customers (i.e. us) according to the laws of economics, or so the right wing tell us. Market forces always work in favour of the consumer, don't they? For Satan to create something no sane person would want would be like a car maker making cars that were guaranteed to crash and kill the driver, or a burger bar trying to beat the competition by making char-grilled whoppers that make you explode, and not in a humorous, scatological way.

Remember, according to the story, Satan is like a demi-god in his ability to create things like fossils, geology, demons, left-handed (sinister) people, rock stars, false prophets, false churches, false religions, other races, etc, according to the bigot making the claims. One Muslim told me recently that Satan can create false gods, though he couldn't tell me how he knew Satan hadn't created his god. Apparently, it's impossible to tell a god created by Satan from one created by... er... God.

So, we know that Satan doesn't lack the skills or the intelligence. After all, it must take an amazing intelligence to be the Great Deceiver. Just imagine being able to outwit everyone who ever lived!

So, here's the question:

Why doesn't Satan compete with God to make a paradise we would all be dying to go to?

Now, don't tell me that Satan doesn't have free will because there would have been no rebellion otherwise; he would have been merely following the will of whoever predestined him to follow. And, with no free will, Satan is doing your god's work, which makes your god evil, so you can't use that one.

Over to you. I'm sure the answer is simple....

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  1. I don't believe this BS of course but I always thought the idea was that God created Hell and that Satan was also punished by being there :/

    The whole thing really does make "God" sound like an evil narcissist though... and Satan a brave rebel standing up for himself...

    1. Why doesn't Satan compete with God to make a paradise we would all be dying to go to?

      Because Satan hates humans. humans are God's creation, who's status was put above that of angels.

    2. Capital K.

      You forgot to tell us how you know this and where we can read about it ourselves.

  2. The answer to your question in the reality you’ve just created would indeed be difficult to arrive at. Fortunately the real story isn’t as twisted as you made it, as I am about to explain.

    Satan didn’t question God’s perfection, he was jealous of it. He wanted to be God and rule all of Heaven. To achieve this, he rallied one third of the angels to his cause and launched a rebellion. They were defeated and banished to Earth which Adam later gave him control of when he sinned.

    Satan didn’t “make” Hell. Hell is a place that is eternally separated from God. Satan and all his fallen angels are destined for it and they are trying to take as many of us down with them.

    Also, Satan can’t just create “fossils, geology, demons, left-handed (sinister) people, rock stars, false prophets, false churches, false religions, other races, etc”. He needs to deceive mankind to do his work for him. Also I disagree that most of those are evil anyway.

    1. >Satan didn’t question God’s perfection, he was jealous of it.<

      Are you pretending I said something I didn't say as a diversion or are you hoping to mislead other readers whom you hope won't have read my blog?

      >Also I disagree that most of those are evil anyway.<

      You disagree with something that wasn't said, eh?

      How about the point about whether Satan has free will or is merely an automaton doing your God's work? I noticed you skipped past that point.

      The question was, "Why doesn't Satan compete with God to make a paradise we would all be dying to go to?"

      Will you be answering it later of are readers supposed to imagine you have?

    2. @kyle smeltzer This is where the core issue lies and what we atheist separate from religious people when they are given a text say a story from the many stories of a religious text whether it be quran,bible or geeta people just take them as it is without thinking despite presence of contradiction,competing religions,multiple gods vs single,problem of evil etc. as you said kyle lucifier wanted to rule and he some how convinced one third angels with him to fight god who was omnipotent(but witty lucifier and one third of angels knew it and remember angels are along side god they know he exists and they are more smart than humans) his creator who could have turned him into ashes or torment them for all eternity just by willing and not one of the one third angels or lucifier himself considered implication of their action and rebelled now only two conclusions can be drawn
      1)lucifier is very stupid but if it were only lucifier we would have said he lost his sense due to anger/ego but why the rest of angels tagged along.
      2)despite knowing that god is omnipotent he tried to take his place so he knew that he could be defeated otherwise why risk it?i mean he was in heaven (which the reward you know its the reward and he was already there) why suffer with a fight against god who is all loving.
      This is the explanation for your comment
      now as a muslim i heard different version iblis(satan) was banished for defying god in following manner(short version) god created adam and said all angels to bow all bowed except satan he said i am more mighty than him why i should bow to him and this made god angry and he banished lucifier and dual began lucifier said i will prove that your creation(adam) is not worthy of my respect i will corrupt them and make them against you and god said game on dude if they are worthy of me you will fail you may convince them anyhow but not harm them/kill them in later story the adam and eve get kicked out for an apple(i wonder why heaven doesn't have any unearthly extraordinary fruit but apple) and it is on since then billions of people have,are and will suffer for all eternity untill the scores are set now in spirit of winning god gives you heaven for helping him score more and satan will give you dirty stuffs like drug,western clothes,wine,playboy magazine to score more i wonder what is current score but i have clue that evil is currently leading so what happens if satan wins what will he gain just win a argument? or will he be made god by god which he wanted to according to you? checkmate now your move believer

    3. @faizan. as a Muslim ...what you said is mostly right.

      the apple Adam ate is said to be Fruit not surly an apple.

      what happens if Satan wins? nothing, since he'll go to hell he wants to take as many Adam offspring (us) with him.

      that was his challenge, it's not have anything to do with scores.

      he want as many of us to be worse than him. he will gain nothing and he knows that

  3. “Are you pretending I said something I didn't say as a diversion or are you hoping to mislead other readers whom you hope won't have read my blog?”

    Nope, I am saying you’re wrong. I’m saying YOU are the one hoping to mislead other readers whom you hope haven’t read the Bible. If your story is biblically accurate why didn’t you provide any references?

    1. kyle smeltzer

      Don't you think it'd about time you gave up trying to be an apologist for Christianity, a hobby for which you seem singularly ill-equipped?

      Even your infantile attempts to divert the conversation whilst pretending to have dealt with the point of the blog are so transparently inept that it seems hardly worth your bother.

    2. Not to mention why would god create a hell if nobody is intended to go to it. He would have had to have known satan would use his free will to not free will. How can it be a place separate from him if he is everywhere. The reason the "apologist" will always have a job is because there will always be a need to explain things.

  4. “Even your infantile attempts to divert the conversation whilst pretending to have dealt with the point of the blog are so transparently inept that it seems hardly worth your bother.”

    If you’re referring to the question you asked: “Why doesn't Satan compete with God to make a paradise we would all be dying to go to?” I thought I made it clear that this question is irrelevant to the actual story. Satan didn’t create Hell, he can’t create anything. He’s not a “demi-god,” he is a fallen creation and has to influence humans to do his work for him.

    You’re right in saying that Satan doesn’t entice anyone with the prospect of spending eternity in Hell; instead he tricks people into believing that there is no Hell (or Heaven), so they can indulge in their sinful lifestyles thinking there will be no eternal consequences.

    Also, you still have yet to present any biblical references to support your story.

    1. because it's a mix of many religious views on Satan.

      if a reference is made it'll prove that the article is twisted.

  5. >If you’re referring to the question you asked: “Why doesn't Satan compete with God to make a paradise we would all be dying to go to?” I thought I made it clear that this question is irrelevant to the actual story. <

    Is that really the best excuse you can come up with for not being able to answer it? Pathetic.

  6. Oh the tedious contortion and tortured logic. Yes, indeed, whomever made up this garbage did spend a ton of time on it, but nonetheless, it's all garbage. We might as well be discussing Santa's intentions for the upcoming season.

  7. You go Kyle! Keeping it real and refusing to respond directly, deferring blame, and defending nothing. Keep up the tradition!

  8. The charge of narcissism may be met by asking, presuming the existence of God, what would be the object most deservedly worthy of love and devotion? The expected answer would be "God". In fact, loving something more than one loves God would be considered idolatry, and God, incapable of idolatry, must love himself more than any and all of the rest of creation. For man, narcissism is a form of idolatry; in God, love of that which is supremely lovable (i.e., Oneself) is not only to be expected but may be regarded as sinful were it any other way.

    And, as stated above, the Christian Hell is a place of punishment for the Devil as well as the "unsaved".

    Were I still a believer, I'd think this article a little amateur--as though written by someone who wants to critique something but doesn't want to do the heavy lifting involved in researching the subject matter. But I've read some of your other stuff, which was markedly better.

    1. Thank you for condescending to reply.

      The question was though, "Why doesn't Satan compete with God to make a paradise we would all be dying to go to?"

      You didn't answer it, or even address it in any way.

  9. I am an atheist & read your blog regularly. However, according to the mythology Satan did not create hell & has no ability to change it. Therefore, the question doesn't fit.

    1. So Satan is an automaton carrying out God's will with no freewill or independence.

  10. Only God has the power to create such a place.
    However, Satan can present the illusion of a paradise that appears to compete God's true paradise.
    Satan's paradise is called atheism, a place where you can choose to live apart from God and be completely dependent on your own actions and those of nature. It is a nice place but one subject to fraility and evil. Satan is happy for you to be here, for here, God your Father cannot help you, you can only help yourself. The appeal of being reliant on ones own strength and intellgence is very attractive, that is why many choose to go there instead of God's paradise i.e. our Father's house where everything is supplied by Him.
    This other "competing" place has another name, its called the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. It is written in Genesis 2:9 that God himself created it but warned us not to partake of it, doing so would mean trusting in ourselves and eventually death (Genesis 2:17). However, satan (i.e. the snake) tempts us with this tree/place as it looks pleasant and can make us wise (Genesis 3:6), without the need to rely on God. Satan has no need to create this place, it already exists.

    1. So what's wrong with an illusion if you can' tell it from the real thing?

      BTW, how do you know this stuff? Did God tell you himself, or was that just an illusion created by Satan to fool you?

      How do you know?

      I see you have the standard contempt for knowledge of the religious fanatic. Have you never wondered why people who wrote the Bible were so keen to keep you in ignorance and told you it was a good thing?

    2. The Genesis tale to which you allude may well have started out as a Gnostic tale to illustrate the evil nature of the creator, BTW. Who do you think told the serpent that 'God' had lied to Adam with the first words recorded as being spoken by 'God' to Man, and that he wouldn't die that day if he acquired knowledge (Gnosis)?

      Sorry to break it to you but your fairy tale is just too shot through with contradictions to be taken seriously. Have you ever tried reading a book written for grown ups or did someone frighten you when you were young and gullible?

  11. Assuming the fairy tale to be true, (in reality its like questioning why the Tooth Fairy also takes yellow teeth), I would imagine that the honest christian answer (christians don't know what that is), is that the Devil can't make hell appealing as he doesn't have the ability. He is drawing people to share his fate out of spite. (Seems like lots of work though, I would have retired long ago. You have to admire his dedication) bwa ha ha ;-)

    1. Of course he has the ability, he's the Great Deceiver. Otherwise he doesn't have free will and is merely doing God's work.

  12. Excellent blog!

    I think religions are loosely worded so that believers can't figure them out. If they explained things too reasonably & rationally people would ask too many questions. Questions lead to doubt and doubt leads to unbelief till the religion unravels. I think people like that their religions are ancient. It makes them feel as though they've stood the test of time. Also loosely worded ancient texts sound so mystifying and leaves plenty of room for the imagination. Many people have seen the profit potential in this, however unethical it may be.

    I love the blog! Keep up the good work!



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